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Family DiscipleshipPodcast

Jonas Williams: Chick-fil-A Secrets and Your Family

I bet almost everyone listening to this podcast has eaten at a Chick-fil-A. What are their behind-the scenes-secrets, and how can you apply them to your home?

You are in for a treat today. In this podcast, we are going to talk to Jonas Williams, owner operator of the Chick-fil-A in Seekonk, MA.  This recorded conversation came about because I wanted to learn from him about how Chick-fil-A restaurants are so well run. Why? Well, Scripture tells us that elders and deacons are to manage their households well. While certainly every lesson can’t directly apply, many can.

Jonas became serious about his faith while a student at the University of Georgia. He is a graduate of Southeastern Seminary and served overseas for a number of years. He is married to Melissa and has three children, Luke, Noah, and Zoe.

You are going to love this conversation. It is dripping with Chick-fil-A sauce goodness.

Listen in, and let’s think about how we can lead our families well.

Topics Covered in This Week’s Podcast

00:15 Introduction

04:43 What does SERVE stand for?

05:42 See and Shape the Future

10:09 Engage and Develop Others

17:12 Reinvent Continuously

19:57 Value Results and Relationships

25:53 Embody the Values

27:31 Training to remain within the boundaries, and restorative discipline

20:30 Differences between teen girls and boys, and enjoying managing them

Episode Transcript:

Chap: I bet almost everyone listening to this podcast has eaten at a Chick-fil-A. Well, what are their behind-the-scenes secrets, and how can you apply them to your home? Hi, my name is Chap Bettis and I’m the author of The Disciple-Making Parent. And I want to let you know, you are in for a treat today in today’s podcast. We’re going to talk to Jonas Williams, the owner/operator of the Chick-fil-A in Seekonk, Massachusetts. This recorded conversation came about because I wanted to learn from him about how Chick-fil-A is so well run. Well, what prompted that conversation? Besides just natural curiosity, scripture tells us that the elders and deacons are to manage their households well, and while certainly every lesson can’t directly apply, many can.

Just a little bit about Jonas: He became serious about his faith while he was a student at the University of Georgia. He’s a graduate of Southeastern Seminary and he served overseas for a number of years. He’s married to Melissa and as you’ll hear, they have three children: Luke, Noah, and Zoe. And I just want to let you know, you’re going to love this conversation. You’re going to want to share it with others because it’s dripping with Chick-fil-A sauce goodness. So now, let’s think about how we can lead our families.

Well, welcome, Jonas.

Jonas: Thank you very much.

Chap: Well, we have to start and get out in the open first that you’re a Georgia Bulldog fan, right?

Jonas: That’s right.

Chap: Sorry about that, man. One day, one day, we’ll be there. But I want to think about, one of the reasons I wanted us to have this conversation is just thinking about how Chick-fil-As are so well-managed. And the biblical context, scripture, in 1 Timothy says that elders and deacons are to manage their household well. And I just think that’s an undervalued verse. I think that it’s not thought of. And when I think about Chick-fil-A, I think about it as well-managed: it’s clean, it’s efficient, it’s consistent, it’s friendly. So we met up, we were having this conversation and you started talking about the SERVE structure or values, or thinking about that. But before we even get into what all those, what that acronym means, I want you to tell us: servant leadership is a big deal for Chick-fil-A, right?

Jonas: Yes. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it’s something that we look for not just in our team members, but that even Chick-fil-A looks for in selecting operators. I mean, it surrounds the entire company. I’ve even seen a lot of our senior leadership from corporate Chick-fil-A, when they go to visit a restaurant, they pick up trash in the parking lot. They serve customers in the dining room. It’s like one of the top values that we have as a company.

Chap: I appreciate that. And that’s good. That has huge applications, just even for leading our family. I actually kind of struggled with that phrase sometimes, because I feel like the way I’ve seen it played out is more servant than leadership, but in the corporate context, you’re saying leaders who have that power need to be servants. And so we’ll talk a little bit. What does SERVE state?

Jonas: Yeah, so SERVE as an acronym is something that we’ve used through some of our leadership development material in the past that I’ve used with some of my team before in different ways, but the S stands for See and Shape the Future. And we can get into these in a little bit here, but See and Shape the Future. E is Engage and Develop Others. R is Reinvent Continuously. The V is Value Results and Relationships. And the E is Embody the Values.

Chap: Yeah. We were talking about those and just really, there’s a lot of good in each of those that I think applies not only to fatherhood. How old are Luke and Noah and Zoe right now?

Jonas: Yeah, Luke’s 12, Noah is 10, and Zoe is 9. She just turned 9 last week.

Chap: So you guys are right in the middle of it. So talk a little bit: the first value of SERVE is See and Shape the Future. So what do you mean by that? Thinking about that, what do you mean by that as a Chick-fil-A manager? What do you mean by that; What do you think about that? Let’s apply that for parents as well.

Jonas: So See and Shape the Future is all about vision. That’s where you’re going. And there’s a couple of aspects here. So one is that you have an established vision, you know what you want to be as a company, as a family, whatever. And so you have some sort of defined vision, but you also have the ability to shape those results. So it’s a growth mindset of you having the ability to move your family, your company, yourself, whatever that is, in that direction. With my restaurant, for example, our vision is to be remarkable by creating and developing ambassadors and raving fans. So we have an established vision, and we’d talk about that at our leadership meetings, part of our orientations hosted in our restaurant. And so we know that this is where we are headed, and this is our goal as a restaurant, as a company. And so there’s definitely ways you can apply that to yourself and your family, and having a vision of where you want your family to be. Not just a year from now, but five years from now, 10 years from now. Then you start talking about legacy: down the road, what you want your kids and family to value. And so there’s lots of opportunity, I think, to apply that to both- restaurant business or just business in general, and to your family.

Chap: That’s great. So the whole idea it seems like, sometimes with a family, we just kind of get into it and then we’re constantly responding: “Oh, this is coming up. This is coming up.” And we’re not thinking about, “Okay, where do we want to be?” So one day, you know, that newborn is going to be 12. And then that 12-year-old is going to be like mine: 20, 24 and our 30. And again, we can shape our kids. We can’t control them, but just by- what’s the phrase that you say every meeting? “We want to be remarkable . . .”

Jonas:  “. . .by creating and developing ambassadors and raving fans.” Yeah.

Chap: Yeah. So you’re just drilling that into your team members.

Jonas: So we have definitions. We have definitions of what is an ambassador, what is a raving fan, but I had this thought while you were mentioning that how we could just kind of stumble into things too, and we become reactive towards issues or things that might come up. And we talk all the time that my team could probably quote this to you, but to be proactive and not reactive. So we have to be proactive. And it’s something as small as, you know, we have people go outside and take orders on iPads at the drive-through. We don’t wait until there’s a long line to send people outside. We anticipate that it’s coming. And part of that is because it happens every day around the same time every day, but we don’t wait until that line gets there to put those people out, because it helps the drive-through to be more efficient. We have them out there proactively anticipating what’s about to happen.

And so there’s ways that that happens too. Like my son’s 12. You know, there’s things that happen around this time in a person’s life. And I have to anticipate that that’s going to happen and not just wait for it to happen and be reactive to that.

Chap: Yeah, so getting ahead of that thinking, you know, we all know that changes come around that age, and saying, “Okay, I want to be thinking I had, okay.” So See and Shape the Future, which I just think is really for parents to say, “Where are we going? And as you were talking about building remarkable ambassadors, I was just thinking, part of that is as a family, it’s just creating an identity. So just that we want to be a special family and love others, but we also want to have our cool, you know, perhaps Bettis or Williams handshake or something like that, where we’re like, “Yeah, we’re going somewhere.” So we’re proactively going somewhere else. So that’s great thinking about seeing and shaping the future, but let’s think now let’s think about the E, so Engage and Develop Others. Talk a little bit about how you try and do that as a manager. And again, how you, how families, even church leaders might think about the same principle, Engage and Develop Others.

Jonas: We do have an expectation for all of our leaders that they would be engaging with and developing people around them. One of the things that we do require for anybody who’s interested in leadership at my restaurant is that they read a book from John Maxwell called Developing the Leader Within You. And his main thesis for that book is that leadership is influence. It’s not being the best at something necessarily. And so what I’ve told my team is, it’s not that you’re the best breader or the best bagger or the best whatever. We need really good people in those positions. But just because you’re really good at that doesn’t mean you’re a leader. A leader at my Chick-fil-A is someone who influences others to achieve remarkable results. And so it’s about making the people around you better. So that’s one part of it.

Another aspect of it is really investing in those people and being present with them, spending time with them, and developing those people. And so we have a principle that we use that’s called open-handed staffing. You can look that up. There’s lots of resources about that as well, but basically, people know that my primary motivation for having them on my team is that they would be better at whatever they go on to do after Chick-fil-A because of the time that they’ve spent working for me. I’ve had conversations with people and they’ve turned down other job opportunities to stay working for me just because they know that it’s not about, I’m not just trying to hold onto them for my own benefit. I’m really trying to help them achieve what they want to achieve.

So my hope is that what’s best for Chick-fil-A and what’s best for this person are the same thing. That’s I know that that’s not always the case. And so when those two things are not the same, I want that person to do what’s best for them. And so actually they’ve seen that people have greater loyalty to employers who have that sort of attitude versus just saying, I want to keep you, because if you leave, it’s going to be bad for me or whatever. And Chick-fil-A tends to be a job a lot of times- not always, but a lot of times- that’s an in between job. It could be an in between job for five or ten years, but oftentimes people will go on to do something else after Chick-fil-A. And so, as an employer, I want to be the kind of person- that kind of employer- that makes them better at being a parent or being a marketing person at a firm somewhere or whatever that is because of the values, the disciplines, the things that they’ve learned at Chick-fil-A.

Chap: Well, that’s great. So you’re engaged and you’re trying to develop them because there are a few people who will make their careers at Chick-fil-A, but the majority will not. And everybody knows that. But it’s interesting as a church leader, and I wonder how this applies to the family. But there’s kind of this tension of the corporate, the large group, and the individual. So on the one hand because you’re so focused on the large group, you can use people, and it really doesn’t matter that they’re developed. What matters is, did we crank out this project? Are we meeting this quota for sandwiches? or whatever. And yet, don’t you think that’s ultimately shortsighted? I mean, you do, and we’ll talk about this in a minute when we get to Value Results and Relationships, you do have to value results, but right. You want people to know that you care about them and are trying to develop them.

Jonas: Yeah, you’ve got to make sure people feel cared for. Because if they don’t feel cared for, they just feel used. And that’s not how you want anybody to feel, especially as a Christian business person, or just as a Christian in general, you don’t want people to feel like you’re using them. And if you’re not engaging with people, you’re not developing them, that’s how they’re going to feel. And we even do things like Saturday mornings, once a month, I do a new team member breakfast where I sit down- because I’m not part of our interview process anymore for interviewing team members, but I would want to know them. And I want them to know who I am. And so we do a new team member breakfast on a Saturday morning where we just sit down and have breakfast together. And we do like an ice breaker and everybody sort of introduces themselves. And I kind of tell my story about how I got to Chick-fil-A and, and it’s been a great opportunity to just ask questions and engage with people, and get to know the 16-year-old team member that just started. So they know who they’re working for, and not just stepping into making chicken sandwiches all day. So that really is the first part, which is engaged.

Chap: So we talked about Engage and Develop Others. And I think once you get kind of the machine kind of well-oiled, it can be easy just to disengage. And so you’re talking, moving towards people. People often have problems, but moving towards people. I think a lot of this kind of applies to the family in terms of saying, first of all, “Am I engaged with my kids?” And yet I wonder, I’m just thinking of this as we’re having this conversation. But I wonder if, because of our child centered culture, it’s Not Develop Others. There should be play, obviously. But part of making disciples is you’re trying to develop them and develop their walk, you know what I’m saying?

Jonas: Yeah. For sure.

Chap: I need to be emotionally engaged, but I’m developing them.

Jonas: And a lot of that is just being present with your kids. So like, we go to our kids’ games and things like that. But we also limit what our kids can do as far as number of activities and things like that because it can just, you can get swept away. We’re kind of right in the middle of this phase where you can get swept into activity after activity after activity, baseball and whatever. And so we only allow our kids to do one thing at a time. We’ve got three kids. So that’s three things, and they all do different things. And so if we were having to do multiple things with all three kids, you get swept in this sort of whirlpool of activities in your mind. You might be there with them, but you’re not engaged with them. And so that provides enough kind of blank space for us to be able to spend time- quality time- with our kids outside of their own activities.

Chap: That’s good. You start becoming an Über driver instead of a parent.

Jonas: Right.

Chap: Well, talk about, talk about Reinvent Continuously. So, now, that’s an interesting one. What does that mean?

Jonas: Yeah. So this is a lot about operations when it comes to the business, and we’re, never satisfied with just how it’s going. Like this is good enough. “Good enough” is not a phrase that I ever want to hear at my restaurant. We’re always trying to improve, and we’ve got a lot of metrics to look at to see where we are in certain areas at certain points in time, but we’re always trying to make it better. And so we have in one of our values, it’s personal excellence. It has to do with having a “make it better” attitude. So if you’re doing drinks for drive through, you want to figure out a way to be more efficient in the way that you’re doing that, or you want to be able to work that position at a busier hour than you’ve done before.  You have to figure out different ways to do that. And we expect that not just of the leaders and managers at Chick-fil-A; we expect that if the 16-year-old new team member, that this is their first job. We want them to have that sort of attitude of making it better, not just kind of taking it status quo. Good enough. That’s not okay. And so as you move up, kind of bigger picture, you’re really looking at what do we need to do to reinvent this, or to change this process or to change the structure of our leadership teams so that we can grow or whatever that is. So we’re always looking for ways to reinvent what we’re doing. So a lot of it for me personally is about reinventing, rethinking the way that we’re doing things constantly so that we can grow and just become better at what we do, fulfill our vision and live our values out in our community.

Chap: I can see how that, I think, applies to whether it’s church leadership or family leadership, but that you’re constantly evaluating. Like, Am I just coasting? Am I coasting as a dad? Am I coasting? I don’t know too many moms who are coasting, but I think there’s a temptation for us as dads. And just asking, “How can we grow and improve?”- whether it’s individual character or unity versus squabbling, you know, kids squabbling, there’s always things to work on. I remember when I was right in the midst of where you are and just thinking, Man, there’s 20 things to work on as we’re really striving to be remarkable or excellent. Grace covers our sin, but grace also energizes us to seek excellence there. So, yeah. And that’s great. Well, talk about- I really liked this one a lot- Value Results and Relationships. So V is for Value Results and Relationships. Talk about that.

Jonas: Yeah. This can be a tough one just because most people generally fall on one side or the other. So a lot of people will fall on the relationship side where you care so much about it. And this even goes back to personality type and sort of how you’re wired, and this is how I was, especially coming out of college and going into ministry for a little while. Always sort of that bent towards you care a lot about people, you care a lot about. . . it even can get to you care a lot about what people think. Again, this is how I think I’m naturally wired, which I think is there’s a lot of value there. I would say a lot of pastors are that way. And a lot of them, a lot of people go into ministry because you’re that way, but also results matter.

And especially, a business does not exist if it doesn’t have results. Businesses exist to make money. And we could talk about that separately, but if it doesn’t make money, it doesn’t exist. Results have to be there. And so we talk a lot about results all the time. And as I said before, we’ve got a lot of metrics to look at, to know if we’re getting the results that we’re looking for. We have established goals that we have every year for our leadership team that we talk about every month in our leadership team meetings, how we’re doing towards those goals. And everybody has a written job description that has, here’s how you know that you’re being successful in your job is this, this and this. And I’ve written one for myself that here’s how I know I’m being successful in my job as this, this and this. And my team has seen that as well. So that they’re able to look at me too, just to see is he being successful, but it’s got to be a balance of both.

And you may have somebody that falls more on the results side, where they only care about results and that can damage relationships. And then you’re not the kind of person that people want to work for. But there has to be both. You can’t have just one or the other in my opinion.

Chap: One of the things that we talked about in this conversation, you had a couple of things, which I really I’ll ask you to elaborate on under this. One was We’re a team, not a family. And we can talk about that because a business is different than a family. And we’re going to talk about that, but there are overlapping principles. But second, I love this. And this just applies. This is a general life principle. There’s lots of blessings within the boundaries and there’s discipline outside of the boundaries. You were saying that in the context of business, you weren’t saying that in the context of family, but I think that’s a biblical concept. That’s a family concept. We live in a world that says “Color outside the lines.” And then certainly, there’s a place for creativity and energy and all that. And yet, as a boss, God’s word, as a parent, the boundaries I’m giving my kids, if they’re appropriate, bring blessing. So yeah. Anything you want to add to that?

Jonas: Yeah. Yeah. We can go to the concept about team and family. So there’s a lot of times that people will say this and you can think of sports teams, you can think of business teams, anytime you’re in the context of a team: We’re not a team, we’re a family. And while, yeah, it might feel like a family, you are a team and the team results matter. So you look at the Patriots, for example: the best players play. The best players get the most playing time. And if you’re not good, you don’t play, and then eventually you’re fired, you’re let go. And you’re not part of the team anymore. And so while a team has familial characteristics- so there are things that make it feel like a family, there’s community there’s care for each other, taking care of each other, watching each other’s back, you know, those kinds of things that might be on a team- the results matter. And in order to stay on the team, you have to be able to get the results.

So we applied that at Chick-fil-A where the most productive people, the best players on the team get the most playing time. And then if there are things that will warrant you to not be on the team anymore, you’re not on the team anymore. You can’t do the same thing with your family.

Chap: Well, yeah. We’re going to talk about that at the end. That’s exactly right. But I think valuing results and relationships, and the best team feels like a family so that when you’re really striving for something you have those strong relationships. And I think the tension here that you’re talking about is ,a family cares for each other when you’re in the hospital, they pull together when you’re hurting. And in a sense, whether it’s a sports team, you get cut if you’re hurt and can’t produce, whereas a family’s not like that. But I think you’re onto something here with results and relationships. That those two, there is a tension, but it’s a good tension. And they complement each other. And kids, everybody likes to be part of a “winning team” going somewhere. And that means results. So, yeah. That’s great. So the E here is Embody the Values. So talk about, what are your values and then what do you mean by how do I embody them?

Jonas: Yeah, so some of this goes back to our vision of developing ambassadors and raving fans. An ambassador at ed Chick-fil-A is someone who loves their job, they live our values in and out of the restaurant, and they want their friends to come work at Chick-fil-A so that essentially they become a recruiter for us; they want their friends to come work. And so they get their friends to come apply and get hired.

An ambassador is someone who lives our values. We have our values listed out and we have five of them. One is guests first: that we take good care of our guests that drives everything that we do. Teamwork: that we take good care of each other, that we work well together. Personal excellence: working with hustle, having that “make it better” attitude, continuously improving. Stewardship, which is taking good care of what we’ve been given. Character, which is “do the right thing.”

So our goal is that when we have a team member or leader or anyone working in the organization, that we have them consistently developing those values and living out those values. And that goes for myself as well. There are some that, if we find out you don’t have them, then you’re not on the team anymore. That’s a lot around personal excellence and character. We try to select for those. So we try to look for things in the interview process that tells us that these people already have these values. We feel like some of the other stuff we can teach, especially teamwork and, and guests first and stewardship. Those are easy ones to teach people. But the other ones- sometimes you find out you either have it, or you don’t. And that goes back to the family and parenting and, and you know, all that kind of stuff. But, but we’re hoping that we have the kind of culture in the restaurant that people begin to, or already embody the values that we have.

Chap: Yeah, that’s great. And let’s talk about that. So one advantage do you have as a manager is you get to choose who to hire. And then if people don’t work out, then you can, after some warnings, let them go. So that is different with a family where we don’t choose, “Oh, I’ll take this child, not that one,” but especially sometimes it feels that way when they’re teens, “I’d like to fire you.” And the church is that way as well, in the sense that we’re open really to all repenting believers, but we talked about before, about living within the boundary of blessing, if you want to want to call it that. But I wonder what you’ve seen with young people, young teen guys, girls, perhaps differences. And, and then have you seen some come along as you called them up to personal excellence, where they’re open, but they’ve never really been challenged that way.

Jonas: One of the things that we cover in our orientations and talk with people about, especially through the disciplinary process, is staying within the boundaries that we’ve established. So if you think about the boundaries that we have, maybe like a road: there’s a lot of space, a lot of fun that we can have in those boundaries. But if you go outside of that for some reason, whatever it is. At Chick-fil-A it could be, you start showing up late a few times a week or whatever. We discipline. We do some sort of disciplinary action. And that the goal of that is not to kick you out- we selected you for a reason! We want you to be here. But the goal is that we would discipline you and that you would change that and come back within the boundaries and to the community that we have on our team or whatever it is.

I think a lot of times that the discipline can feel like, “Oh, you don’t like me. You don’t want me to be here. I’m just going to quit,” whatever that might be. And so we try to make people understand up front that if we do that, it’s not because we don’t like you; it’s because we want you to be here. It’s the opposite of that! Which I think the way that I communicate that principle came from the church. The goal of church discipline is not to kick somebody out. The goal is to get them back in! And so that’s the way we choose to communicate how we do discipline. I think it’s the same way in the family, because you can’t kick them out. They’re still going to be your child. And so I think that principle really matters a lot to the way that we do business. It matters in the way that we communicate to our team. I think it matters in the church and family too.

Chap: That’s huge. I just think that’s just so counter-cultural: we’re going to impose some negative consequence. Not because we’re mad at you- you may be mad in the moment, but we want you back. It’s restorative. We want you to change this character habit.

So as we were on the way out in one conversation, you talked about just the differences you’ve seen in teen boys and teen girls. What, based on those differences, how would you encourage parents to shepherd their sons and daughters?

Jonas: I would argue a lot of our best teenage team members are girls. They tend to be much better at multitasking. Some of this might even just be a personality difference or gender difference, but they tend to be better at multitasking. They tend to be more mature a lot of times than the guys. And I what I’ve seen a lot of times is that the guys are the ones going home and playing several hours of video games every night and staying up until four o’clock in the morning or whatever that is. And if somebody comes in to do an interview and I say, “What are your hobbies?” And the first thing you say is “video games,” chances are, I’m not going to hire you just because I know what the negative effects are of that.

And, I mean, I played games when I was a kid and our kids play video games, we don’t tell them that they can’t. But we also limit that. They get 30 minutes during the week and an hour on the weekends and that’s it. Because I know if my son were to come in to my store telling me that he played five hours of video games the next day, I wouldn’t hire him. And it causes just a lot of immaturity in masculinity, a lot of that stuff. Now, that’s not the case for all of our male team members. We’ve got a lot of great guys that work for me that do play video games. But I just know that as a parent, as an employer, what I’ve seen just time and time again, is that a lot of our female team members just tend to be much more mature, much better at multitasking, more professional than a lot of the guys, unfortunately.

Chap: I think that’s helpful as a parent: just your own modeling, which is allowing some video games, but allowing it with some time limits based on what ages your kids are, but then also saying, “Okay, where am I going?” The vision of where I’m going? When my 16-, 18-year-old, I want them to do lots of other things. And then yeah, play some video games. That’s okay. But not, that’s their biggest hobby and they’re just spending hours and hours. So, man, I tell you, as you’re talking, I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to relisten to this for my ministry over and over. I’m going to try, I’m going to send this to my kids.” There’s just so much here. So one last question. What do you enjoy most about being a manager of a Chick-fil-A? There’s just such, seemingly, consistency, joy, even as you’re talking about guys and girls. I’m like, “Man, the guys I see on the outside line, they’re doing a great job.” What do you enjoy most?

Jonas: When I was actually interviewing to work at Chick-fil-A in North Carolina 10 years ago this week, actually, I was just talking with the operator there, and he kind of gave me a pitch about Chick-fil-A. And I told him I really want to find a job where I can have positive influence with people, have an impact in my community, provide for my family and be able to develop my leadership skills and help other people do the same. So those were the big four things that I was looking for. And if I can find a job where I can do those things every day, or pretty much every day, then that’s what I want to do.

And as I started working at Chick-fil-A and my first day at Chick-fil-A was cleaning tables and taking out trash and sweeping the dining room. And every day since I’ve, I’ve loved my job, there are days where it’s hard. Yes. My official role is owner/operator. And I tell people this a lot. There are some days where I get to wear my owner hat. And there’s some days that I wear my operator hat and I might be working in the kitchen or it might be working on the cash register or whatever, but it’s just something that I really enjoy because it’s an opportunity to do those things that I’m passionate about. It’s having influence with people, having influence in my community and providing for my family, and developing leadership skills. So those are things that I love.

Chap: Well, thanks. Thanks for taking the time. And I really think this is going to be just a very practical, popular podcast. Cause there’s just so much here, whether you’re a parent, first of all, everybody, at least I think a lot of people want to know what goes on behind the scenes at a Chick-fil-A. Yeah. But then secondly, as a business leader, as a church leader, as a parent, there are a lot of just common grace principles we could go back and look at, put scriptural references to many of these, so I really, really appreciate it. So Jonas, thanks for taking the time.

Jonas: Thank you, Chap.