Pornography is a demonic parasite on the Christian church and Christian family. Unless we have an active strategy it will infiltrate our lives and homes. In this podcast I talk with Dan Armstrong, Corporate Communications Specialist at Covenant Eyes.
We talk about how prevalent this issue is, what successful churches are doing, and what families can do. Listen in to be educated on this subject.
Resources From This Podcast
Covenant Eyes
The Porn Phenomenon study by The Barna Group
Over 18 movie
Topics Covered In This Podcast
02:17 Pornography use among Christians
5:00 Handling pornography well in our churches and homes
08:46 The philosophy behind Covenant Eyes
16:52 Testimonials
21:25 Myths parents believe about pornography
Podcast Transcript
Chap: I’m Chap Bettis and you’re listening to The Disciple-Making Parent, a podcast of The Apollos Project, where we seek to equip parents and churches to pass the gospel to their children. According to surveys, three out of five Christian men and one out of seven Christian women admit to struggling with pornography. This parasite is sapping the strength of parents and it also is targeting our children. It really is. As a parent, do you have a strategy in place?
Hi, I’m Chap Bettis, author of The Disciple-Making Parent. You know, Jesus told us in Matthew 18 that whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it’d be better for him to have a great millstone fashioned around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. In other words, Jesus knew that there are those who target little ones and, and seek to bring them down. So in this episode, we discuss a difficult subject, pornography.
I had a great chance to talk with Dan Armstrong, who’s the Corporate Communications Specialist at Covenant Eyes. In our conversation, we walk through the statistics. We talk about what good churches are doing and why sometimes it’s such a difficult issue to talk about. In addition, Dan, who has young daughters, talks a little bit about his own strategy as a parent. And finally, he tells us several frightening stories that are a good wake up call for all of us. So I invite you to listen in and be educated about this vital subject and I’d encourage you to take action as well.
So let’s listen in to my conversation with Dan.
We’re at the Teach Them Diligently conference, and I met Dan Armstrong, what’s your role, what’s your title? Communications?
Dan Armstrong: Yep, Corporate Communications Specialist at Covenant Eyes. I’ve been there about two and a half years.
Chap: I just love the chance at these conventions to get to know, get to talk to people and I just thought it that the people who listen to my podcast would be very interested in a) some of the statistics and then b) what we can do. So why don’t you just tell us a little bit about what the stats actually say? They’re a little overwhelming and scary.
Dan: Some of the biggest ones that startle me the most and startle most people is the idea that this isn’t just a phenomenon that are outside of our walls or that are in our communities, in our states, in our regions, in our country, around the whole world. It is in the Christian church. If statistics are true, I mean, these are self-admitted surveys, three out of five Christian men and one out of seven Christian women say they are struggling with pornography right now. At least on a monthly basis, they’re looking.
So imagine looking around your congregation on Sunday morning and shaking hands with five guys and seven women, and imagine three of those five guys and one of those seven women is right now struggling. It really changes your outlook on, Wow. What I see on the outside is not what’s truly happening on the inside. People are struggling internally and oftentimes we don’t realize it. We don’t ask about it. And either they don’t feel safe talking about it or we don’t feel safe talking about it. We know that Barna study back in 2016 had said that almost 100% of all evangelical churches have realized that pornography is a problem in society and most likely a problem in their church. But yet only 7% of all churches have any type of program to help those who are struggling with pornography. And most of those who used to have a program and no longer have a program said they stopped their program due to lack of interest. So we know there’s a problem, there’s an ongoing problem, but yet, those people who are struggling are not going to their pastors with this issue. And the pastors may not be seeking this out.
Maybe people don’t feel safe about it. And often times at church, I think people are scared. Especially if they’re part of the pastoral staff, they’re afraid they’re going to lose their job if they’re struggling with pornography. People within a community, they’re going to lose their social standing. They may lose their job. They may lose their marriage. They may lose their family. So it’s something that is extremely difficult to talk about because there are so many implications.
But at the same time, do you really want to have a marriage that is based on deception? That is based on a lie that there’s actual cheating going on, albeit a digital one but one that is definitely breaking the relationship between husband and wife?
Chap: But in the churches that you’ve seen address this well, what would you say are some common characteristics of that?
Dan: Sure. There, the churches that are addressing this well have made this a safe topic to talk about. And I think a lot of churches are trying, but I don’t think they’re really getting to the actual specific topic. I think often churches, and I include many of those that I’ve attended, would include pornography in a list. They would say, maybe you’re struggling with some kind of addiction, whether it be you’re struggling with your weight, or you’re eating too much, or drinking too much, or you are working too much. Workaholism is a big thing. Maybe you’re hooked on sports, or pornography, or any number of things. So pornography is jammed into a list of things that people are struggling with, and is never really called out.
And I would say that in that whole list, there’s one common thread among most people: they’ve either struggled with pornography, are currently struggling with pornography, or may struggle with pornography. So we need to make it safe from the pulpit to be able to talk about how God created man and woman, how God created God-honoring, biblical sexual relations in a marriage relationship.
And I think, as people have said, parents, we try to cloister ourselves. We try to wait for some reason. We believe that if we shelter our kids enough, we put them in the right scenario in the right environment that the temptations won’t be there. For some reason, we’re very good at talking to our kids about drugs, alcohol tobacco. Bad influences, those kinds of things. But when it comes to pornography for some reason there’s a struggle and there may be several reasons for that. One may be our parents’ generation. Ny parents were part of the hippie generation, free love and they grew up in an environment where it was pretty much open, pretty much out there and it was acceptable. And they didn’t want their kids to grow up in that environment. So we’re not going to talk about that and it’s not going to be safe to talk about that. And in fact, if you do bring this up, we’re going to correct you and say, “Where are you hearing that from? Are your friends talking about that?”
So in their sincere effort to make things better, they actually close things off and make it less safe. And they’re not safe to come to Mom and Dad. So they’re actually running away from Mom and Dad rather than running to Mom and Dad when they have a question.
One of the people that came up to me during this conference, I think she did a fantastic job at creating an environment. Her nine-year-old came up to her and said, “Mom, one of the kids that I’m talking to mentioned the word ‘rape.’ What does rape mean?” And she was able to have a conversation. She was honest with him and thought he was mature enough to be able to handle what this was.
I remember being an eight- or nine-year-old kid on the playground and someone mentioned that word and I had no idea what that meant. So I asked one of my friends and he said, “I think it’s when people take off their clothes and whip them with a whip.” And even in my teens I thought that’s what rape was. Oh, that’s a terrible thing, but that’s not exactly what a rape is. So you rely on your friends for these things and you make it up, because I could never ask my parents that. My parents would say “Where did you hear that from?” And if you heard it from someone, you’re never gonna hang out with them again. So in that conversation they just pushed me away to say You know what, Dan if you have a question about something and you come to us, you’re probably going to get yelled at. You’re probably going to have fewer friends, because we think they’re a bad influence on you. So, they trained me to not come to them.
And, in looking at today’s environment, what would a kid do? They would Google it. What is rape? Imagine the images that would come up. Or, if someone’s not sure what the word pornography is, type it into a Google search, and I don’t recommend that. You’re going to get all kinds of stuff that Google is now teaching people. It should be easy for kids to come to mom and dad, and creating that safe environment is very difficult.
Chap: Well, tell me a little bit about Covenant Eyes, your philosophy. You just did a you just did a seminar on raising courageous kids in a hyper-sexualized culture. What would you say is your strategy? I’m sure it’s got to have multiple facets there.
Dan: The best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago. Or longer. The second-best time is today. So we tell people, as best as you can, start early with your children when you’re training them. I would say even as young as three years old and I have three daughters, one son and one more daughter on the way. And with our daughters-
Chap: How old are they?
Dan: Sure 10, 8, 6, 3, and then we’ll have a newborn in July. But even when the girls were very young we started with them around 3 years old and let them know that there are certain parts of your body that no one gets to see and no one gets to touch. Hopefully that will keep them from experiencing something, or when someone may want to take advantage of them, hopefully that’ll stop that. It won’t stop everything. Potentially, Lord willing, that it’ll never happen. But it would at least get them thinking that they have worth, they have value. There are things that should be protected and, and, and should be watched.
It’s really interesting because that age two to six is literal, extremely literal. So what we do is we train them a skill and tell them that, you know what, here’s what pornography is to a 3-year-old or to a 6-year-old. Pornography. If you’re talking to your kid, you’d say, “Listen, son or daughter, pornography is a person with little to no clothing on.” So you get them to understand that. They know what that means. They’ve taken showers and baths and so they understand that concept. So if you see that, especially if it’s on a screen or in a magazine or on a movie or on TV, whatever you’re doing, identify that as pornography. Literally talk out loud and say, “That is pornography.” Identify it. “And then, turn away from the screen, close the laptop, put the phone down, whatever you accessed that with, immediately come to Mom and Dad, and tell us exactly what happened.”
Kind of a humorous story, my oldest, who was six years old at the time, came to me, and she was a little bit upset, and I thought, “Well, what’s the matter, honey?” And she said, “Daddy, I think I saw pornography.” And I said, “Okay.” So I kept my cool. I believe my own training.
Chap: You work with this every day!
Dan: It was every day. So I didn’t freak out. Which it’s easy to freak out. That’s the natural- Imagine if your six-year-old came to you and said, “I just saw pornography”!
So I said, “Okay, honey, well, what was the scenario?” And she said, “Well, I was watching Despicable Me,” you know, that cartoon with the little minions, the little yellow guys. And she said, “There was a part in that movie where the bad guy was making a presentation and his little daughters drew a funny picture of him sitting on the potty. And that picture, I don’t think he had any pants on. And that was pornography and I had to tell you about that.” And I said, “Honey, I’m so glad you came to me and I can’t wait to have our next conversation about this too. But today, let’s have this good conversation. And, you know what? Oftentimes, as Daddy had told you, people try to trick you, either on the internet or on the movies and try to show you something that you probably shouldn’t be seeing. This was a scenario that it was meant to be funny. The little kids were playing a trick on their Daddy, and it was meant to be funny, it was not meant to be deceptive, it wasn’t even meant to be pornographic. But I really appreciate you coming to me, and if there’s something like this that happens again, even like this, or similar to this, please come to Daddy. I’d like to talk to you about this again. I think this is wonderful. And you know what? When Daddy told you to identify something like this and then come to me, you did exactly that. And I am so proud of you. And I can’t wait to do this again.”
So she’s thrilled that Hey, I did the right thing and I’m going to be praised for this. So the next time anything happens that’s even questionable, I come to Mom and Dad, they’re going to be happy. They’re not going to scream at me. And if they find out that I didn’t come to them, then that’s a bad thing, because they told me to do this, because they trained me to do the right thing.”
Chap: What strategies are you recommending for families? So obviously, Covenant Eyes, which our family uses. Well, talk a little bit about that.
Dan: Sure.
Chap: So, you’ve got both the blocking function and the reporting function.
Dan: Yes. I think, oftentimes, people, when they think about Covenant Eyes, or online integrity, or any type of online security protection, they think that it’s just filtering. And filtering is a part of it, or blocking. But let’s think about what exactly filtering and blocking is. Let’s put it in this concept. Let’s say that filtering is like a fence. Now, what are fences good for? Fences are good for keeping young people and small animals inside a confined space. We train them in this fence, that as long as you’re within this fence, when Mom and Dad turn and look at you in the backyard, then you’re safe and everything’s fine. If you’re outside of the fence, that’s a bad thing. We don’t like that. So the problem with that is a fence is a terrible teacher. It doesn’t train the heart, it doesn’t actually change behavior, you may actually improve your methods rather than changing your ways.
So as you get older, the children climb the fence, they dig under the fence, they may push on weak spots of the fence to see if they can slide through, they find the gate, and they train themselves that I can actually leave this fence, and as long as Mom and Dad don’t know any better, then I can come back, and everything’s okay.
Chap: I love that, I love that analogy.
Dan: Thank you. It, it seems to work fairly well. But with accountability, I know when they’re trying to get over the fence, I know where the weak points are in the fence, and I know why. Were they bored? Were they upset? Were they curious? I can get to the point of those triggers of where and why are they trying to search for something.
So with monitoring and online accountability, I can see where they’re going, and are they trying to go to a certain site several times that keeps getting blocked? Or did they accidentally stumble upon something and not actually able to see it?
So, I am a lot less likely to go to an inappropriate site if I know that my pastor, my wife, and my other accountability partners are watching this. That’s more effective than a fence or a filter ever would be because, imagine. If it’s just me and the fence, I’m going to win. Especially if no one’s watching and I’m not going to get in trouble if I knock the fence down or climb over the fence because without accountability, no one’s watching. You know, the best way to get someone to do something is tell them they can’t do it. When you’re heading home and it says bridge out, that’s my shortcut home. Is the bridge really out? I want to get through here. So that’s the difference.
So we did a study with Barna two years ago. And we asked people who just have a filter, or a blocker, or that type of software on their computer how many times do you access inappropriate images? And there were various amounts, but if you add up all those percentages, they added up to 100%. 100% of people who have only a filter on their computer are accessing pornography, whether it’s daily, weekly, monthly, or several times a year. So filters by themselves don’t work. It’s a terrible tool. It’s a terrible trainer. You have to have accountability.
Now we will sell accountability either by itself or we’ll sell accountability with the filtering. That’s what I do. I recommend that for children. And I prefer that for myself. I would even risk being overblocked and not go to somewhere that’s actually fairly safe. And let my wife know that. Because the best gift I’ve ever given her was- I’m going to let you in on something that is normally pretty intimate. It’s pretty private. It’s pretty normally secretive. People take their computer, take their phone, take their tablet and escape somewhere where it’s just them and that computer. I want to invite her and other accountability partners in.
Obviously God’s already seeing it. But connecting and bridging that gap between technology and relationships rather than stepping away from it. Because we train our kids sometimes, You know, if Mom or Dad want to binge watch a show, it’s, Oh, we’re going to go to our corner, we’ll see you in a couple hours. How do we expect our kids not to do that same thing? Mom and Dad are doing this so I’m going to. I have a right to have this device and I can binge on whatever I want. And eventually they may stumble upon something.
Chap: What kind of testimonials have you received? I’m sure you must get testimonials from people.
Dan: It’s interesting because the least likely people come to us. You do have a lot of people that fall in the same categories, but there have been some that have come to us and said, “You know what, I work at a Christian bookstore, and I’ve been struggling with pornography for 20 years, and because of the accountability, I’m now porn-free for the last year.” And it just gives you chills. It just gets you really excited. Some young people coming up, and even during conferences like these they’ll come up to us when no one else is looking because they think, Even talking to you guys, people may think that I’m addicted and we try to shed that perception because whether you’re struggling or not, it’s okay to be protected, it’s okay to be accountable just because you’re accountable. Taking precautions doesn’t mean that you’re struggling. It may mean that eventually you may struggle. We have to make it safe for people to be imperfect. We have to make it safe for people who are struggling, who want to get better. For some reason, we still have that stigma that well, if you’re involved in this, then we have to get rid of you.
I’ve been a part of many churches that unfortunately did it the wrong way. Where a youth pastor was either calling phone sex lines from the church’s phone system or was viewing pornography on a computer, and all of a sudden, on Sunday morning, one of the other pastors gets up and says, “Well this person was looking at pornography. We’ve dismissed them and hopefully you’ll never hear from them again.” And it’s like, wait a minute, Christ never treated us like that. Imagine with us, if we made a mistake, you pick the sin, you name it. Maybe it’s pornography. Imagine if he would come to us and say, “You know what? That’s it. You’re done. We don’t want to see you again. You’re kicked out of this community.” We should be the safest place for anyone who’s struggling with anything, especially pornography, because it is so internal. Because I think a lot of people realize that when it comes to pornography and many other addictions, whether it be drugs or other substances, oftentimes we as Christians, we just tell them, “You know what, you just need to pray harder. You need to read your Bible more.” And those are excellent things, and you don’t want to do without those. But, oftentimes, they won’t see a lot of victory, even after doing more of that. Because there are things going on. Imagine the person who’s trying to get off drugs and is literally shaking because they’re going through withdrawal, and screaming at them saying, “You just gotta fight this, you just gotta pray harder, you just gotta read your Bible more.”
There’s a lot going inside the human brain when you even first experience pornography. You have extreme levels of dopamine that’s going on, and oxytocin, that’s the bonding chemical. When oxytocin is released during that high, you are literally bonding to pixels. You are replacing a true human sexual connection with digital images. So when you get with your spouse and this doesn’t seem as exciting, why is that? Well, you’ve trained your brain on the artificial. It’s like binging on a lot of sugar and then someone gives you a piece of celery. You’re like, Oh man, this is garbage. I don’t like this. When in reality, that celery is a lot better for you. It actually does have flavor to it. It does have wonderful nutritional properties. You’ve trained yourself on the synthetic to crave the synthetic and more of the synthetic rather than enjoying the things that God has given you.
But even in the atheist and agnostic world, they’re realizing that porn is a net negative for society. It’s bad for individuals, it’s bad for relationships, it’s bad for society. And they’re the ones that are really trumpeting this whole idea that, I’ve actually ruined myself with pornography. And then you look at things like the Me, Too movement, and those kinds of things where people are realizing that it’s not cool to treat women as objects. And porn has trained even those very powerful men. You think of Louis C. K., Matt Lauer, Charlie Rose. All of those men, in their apologies to these women, said, “I thought we had shared feelings. I didn’t see this as me preying on you. I thought you wanted me to advance this way.” Well, where did they get that idea that they wanted to advance? Not from the women. It was from the world of porn. Because in the world of porn, no one ever says, “No,” you get to do whatever you want. You get to treat people any way you want, and you never have to say you’re sorry because they apparently enjoy it too. So they train themselves and fake themselves out to even think that, yeah, women want to be objectified, and in what other world, in what other context is that ever acceptable? Only in the world of porn.
Chap: Before we hit start on the recorder, you talked a little bit about myths. Can you just elaborate those, that you think that we might believe, or parents might believe?
Dan: During one of my sessions I talk about a father who came up to us several years ago and he said, “I wish that I had learned about Covenant Eyes about a year ago, before the FBI came to our house to arrest our son.” And we thought, Okay, do tell. What just happened here? He says, “Well, my son, who is 16 years old, is a straight-A student, goes to church with us every single week. He’s involved in community service. He plays sports. This is the kid that you would pick if you are a parent. This is the good kid. He we did everything we could to protect him. We don’t have cable at our house. We don’t have internet at our house. We’re very protective of this, but yet his grandparents thought it would be a good idea to buy him a laptop to do some word processing for school when he’s doing reports.”
He can use an encyclopedia on this thing, a dictionary, so this will be a good thing for him. So they bought him a laptop. Parents thought, “We’re protected. We don’t have anything connected here.” He ends up finding that he can tap off the neighbor’s wifi and he’s getting into chat rooms. He’s looking at questionable sites like swimsuit models and these kinds of things. And he gets into a chat room and he makes schedules to get with someone who believes is a 13-year-old girl who wants to have an intimate encounter with him and ends up being an undercover FBI agent who he gave his address to. And they show up and now he’s a sex offender because of this.
So no one ever suspects it’s going to be their kid. Anyone who’s ever had this tragedy never thought they were going to be the one that this is going to happen to. So that is a scenario where the good kid got into trouble. And when people say “That would never happen to my kid,” I always ask, “Why not? What has happened in society where your kid is now safe?” That is one of the biggest myths, is a false sense of security, that we’re safe, that my kid’s a good kid and would never do this.
Number two, if they were to see something, they would look away. Unfortunately, in both those scenarios, this kid didn’t do that.
And number three, what we have in place is good enough. There is a movie that was made in Canada this past year that was called Over 18. In Canada, right now, by law, if you want to access a pornographic site, by law there’s a screen that pops up and it says, “Do you want to access this pornographic site? Click Yes if so, No if you’re not 18 or over.” My three-year-old son can click Yes. So that doesn’t stop anybody from doing anything. So what the movie Over 18 is trying to do is trying to require at least a credit card or other type of verification that this person is actually older than a child to be able to access this site.
This documentary interviewed a 12-year-old boy and he said, I’m 12 years old and my addiction started three years ago when I was in the third grade. And here’s what happened. I was sitting at home at the family computer in a public place. It’s always in the kitchen or it’s in the living room. Mom’s sitting here on my left. Dad’s sitting here on my right. And I’m doing homework on my computer. I got so good at minimizing my screen. I knew when Mom was going to get up. I knew when Dad was going to get up. I knew when their heads were turned. They had no clue what I was accessing at that point.” And the parents were mortified. They thought, We’re doing every single thing right. We’re not only having the computer in a public place, we are literally sitting next to him when we think he’s doing homework, and he’s feeding a porn addiction this entire time.
So just through his own curiosity, he ends up developing this. So, good kid, parents are involved, we thought we had enough things in place. That’s where Covenant Eyes comes in.
Chap: Because you’re actually behind.
Dan: We’re actually inside the computer, actually inside the iPhone, the Android device, the Kindle Fire. So those who are trying to access these sites, regardless of whether things are filtered or not, it goes on that accountability report. So for myself, I sign into my computer and I can do my work stuff. I can do some personal stuff and then I can log out. And then my 10-year-old daughter can come in behind me, log in with her Covenant Eyes account, and then she’s filtered and monitored at her level so that she can’t access sites that even I can access. Maybe even a teen site or Facebook or those kinds of things. I’m not ready for her to go to those social chats.
Chap: When she’s 50 or so, she’ll be able to do that.
Dan: That’s right. But other than that, I want to keep her away from that for now. But I think people have that false sense of security, and I think that we truly believe if we put our kids in the right environment, if we keep quiet about these things, these things will go away. I always tell you, I’m almost 40 years old and I’m still waiting on my sex talk. And that’s never going to happen. My dad has passed away and my mom doesn’t have any interest in talking to that right now! I have five children, so we figured it out. But she was uncomfortable talking about it, and I don’t blame her for that, because it’s tough for a mother to talk to a son about this, and I get that, I understand that.
Chap: Well thanks, this has been really, really helpful. Just the idea, a) the statistics, and then also as you’re talking, what I’m thinking is really just to be proactive, rather than saying, It’s not going to happen here. Say, No, it will happen here, just because just because of the sinfulness within us.
You know, it’s interesting, in the New Testament, in terms of descriptions of sin, there are two biggies. One is anger, and all sorts of words describing anger, and the other is sexual sin. And so to say a) “Somehow, I personally am an exception to this rule,” or b), “My little sinner that my wife and I created is an exception to this rule,” that’s crazy. So really it’s almost the universal precaution now. You have your medical people who take universal precautions, we just assume you’re going to need precautions. We really have this pipeline of sewage that can come into our house. So thank you very much for being on the podcast.
Where can people find more information?
Dan: Of course you can go to covenanteyes.com and we have free resources.
Chap: Tell me a little bit about those.
Dan: Regardless of if you ever become a Covenant Eyes member or not, we give away our eBooks for free. We have roughly 20 of them and we deal with the subjects of brain science when it comes to pornography exposure. How to talk to your kids about this, even if they haven’t seen it. And if they have seen it, how do you talk to your children about that? Even down to an actual script. If you as a parent are uncomfortable, we actually give you a script that you can memorize, you can kind of tweak it the way you want to, and have a good conversation with them. Because who’s not uncomfortable talking about these things with their children? So even down to the actual verbiage to use with them and how to talk to them about this.
We have Parenting the Internet Generation. We talk about media as you do as well. How do you process media? What kind of messages are they trying to get to our children? What are they actually selling? And do you think that hypersexualization was even necessary in trying to sell that hamburger or car wash? So we deal with those things.
We’ve done a real recent one called Hobbies and Habits. And this is mostly for the more adult crowd, especially people who are struggling with any kind of addiction, whether it’s pornography, gaming binge, watching certain things. How do you address the environment? One lady that let us know what she did was, her husband loves to game for hours on end. So she said, “In our family room where the gaming system and the TV are, we have a cabinet that the TV is in. We unplug the gaming console. We unplug the controllers. We wrap them very tightly around and we put them away and make it difficult to access. So if you want to play the video games, it’s probably going to be 5 or 10 minutes to set everything up.” But she said, “My husband’s also an excellent musician. So I put all of his guitars within arm’s reach hanging on the wall, so rather than gaming for four or five hours, he grabs his guitar and plays for 20 minutes and then he goes on his merry way.” So he’s a little more productive with that.
If you have a problem with pornography, oftentimes if you simply open your windows to that room that you’re watching, or you open the door and make sure it’s not locked, just changing that environment makes it more open, makes it more transparent, makes it more accountable. Even if there’s no one there, it gives you that perception. So we have those things. You can go to covenanteyes.com and you can go to /ebooks or just go to free resources on there and we’d love to be able to give you the information that you need.
Chap: Well, thanks. This has been really helpful. I love your product, love your way you’re helping families. And really what you’re helping people do is when Jesus says, cut off your right hand, pluck out your eye, You’re helping people do that. So thanks. Thanks for talking to me. Dan: Appreciate it.
